727. What Is The Backfire Effect?

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the way the world works. Today, I want to continue on a trend we've been doing here, which is talking about different biases and how you should be where you're biased, right? We've talked about this going through some of the chapters,

but I've also, we did another episode just on what a bias is and why it's so important, especially right now and just the polarizing world we live in to understand what this means and to make sure you are checking. Not only on why it's so important to know,

not only when we try to persuade or have civil discourse with other people, but also checking ourselves when we might be using our own bias. I think I just pointed out the wrong word, but because it says, be where you're biased. I remember that we have them too.

So I want to talk about one today called the backfire effect. Okay, and we know what something, something backfire is usually what that means. It kind of blows up in your face, something you intended to be one way, it goes another way.

So what does that mean when we talk about a bias? Well, when people are shown facts, and I think we have a inclination to believe that when people are shown facts, when people are given a logical argument that they're gonna go, you know what?

Everything I've believed for the last, however long I've been alive is wrong and I didn't know that until you pointed it out. Thank you for your logical well thought out response or answer, whatever it is. Here's the thing, in a perfect world, that would be great

and it would be wonderful and we would be changing hearts and minds right and left. Unfortunately, that is not the way humans act. Humans are very emotionally driven and that's not always a bad thing. You notice I just said change hearts and you know,

minds so you have to change hearts too, but you know, we should be thinking with logic first, whenever we can or we should at least be training ourselves to curb that emotional response and focus on logic, even though again, easier said than done. Even for those of us who really appreciate

a good well thought out structured logical thought process. But when people are presented with thoughts that are different from their own, a belief structure that is different from their own, instead of sitting back instead of pausing and saying, you're right, thank you for, you know,

or even not even saying you're right, but even saying, you know, I'm gonna sit with that information for a little bit, I'm gonna consider it and then I'll come back to you with a well thought out response. People don't do that.

A lot of people, they're natural inclination when you present an idea that is contrary to their own is going to be defensive. They're going to not just say, maybe I'll think about that, but they're gonna double down on what they believe

because how dare you say something that is different from their belief structure? And that sounds silly and we can laugh at it, but we all do it. Do you use just like a silly example, right? If somebody were to tell me,

actually here's a real controversial opinion, I'm not a big fan of chocolate, okay? So maybe we're in a conversation and I say, chocolate is the worst flavor in the world, okay? And instead of us having a civil discussion over whether chocolate is good or bad,

you get so mad because you love chocolate and your grandma makes the best, you know, chocolate pie or chocolate brownies, whatever it is. And so instead of asking me why I feel that way, you're just going to start being like, well, my grandma makes the best shot.

Anyone that disagrees with her is, you know, dumb blah blah blah, and you're going to get really defensive. Now, chocolate is a silly thing to argue over. Though usually when I tell people, I don't like chocolate, it does result in some arguments.

But chocolate is obviously a silly example. There's a lot more political, substantive conversations where people are going to get very upset about it. And so this is what we call the backfire effect. The backfire effect is when somebody is presented with either a challenge to their belief

or a new opinion, a new belief. And instead of considering it, instead of maybe, you know, thinking of the merits of that argument, they're just going to double down and it's going to become, it's going to become very personal to them.

And why is it going to become personal to them? It's because our beliefs are really personal and it's not a flaw to feel that way. It's human, it's very human, right? We connect with our beliefs. We see them as part of who we are.

And so when somebody comes in and challenges that belief, oh my goodness, it feels like a personal attack, right? It feels like they are saying something directly to us. I know somebody the other day said something really mean about Ron Paul, who I love. And I took it like, I had to like check my own bias,

beware my own bias because I got so offended that I could feel like my like emotions like starting to rise. And then I had to sit back and just say, you know what? I actually just ended up saying like a witty argument because I didn't want to get into a discussion.

But I had to sit back and control my emotions as the point of that and maybe consider what they were saying and come up with a serious rebuttal or something that you can actually work with in a conversation, not something that is going to put up walls and make it very hostile.

But the point of this is that your beliefs feel really personal. And so when somebody does challenge them, it does feel like almost it's an attack on you. So obviously, like I said, beliefs are personal. And then like I mentioned earlier, once that happens and I kind of said this with my Ron Paul example,

emotions start to take over logic. I hate to use a Ron Paul example for that because obviously he's right about everything. But when somebody challenges your belief in any way, it's going to make your emotions start to rise and emotions are going to cloud your logic.

And again, is this something we should all work on? Absolutely, but it is very human to be this way. So if you find yourself being like that, don't beat yourself up about it, but maybe stop and say, how can I work on this so that I don't let those emotions cloud

my logical judgment, right? So that's what's going to happen. That's what's going to cause people to do this. And then they're going to get really defensive because our mind, our animal brains, if you want to call it that, our monkey brain,

we get defensive, we start putting up defense mechanisms. And sometimes that is to just start doubling down on what we already believe, which is exactly what the backfire effect is. And not to mention, if we don't trust the person who we're debating with, and a lot of the time,

if we're debating with somebody who we don't disagree with or if we're debating with somebody that we are adamantly opposed to, it's going to be hard to take what they say seriously, which is already going to put up a wall. So that's just something to be aware of.

So these are some things that our mind just kind of automatically does when we're presented with an argument different from our own. And it doesn't make people, reacting emotionally is, you know, passion is good. It's good to have passion.

It is good to be so fervent, it is a good word to say with their about your beliefs. But do you think it's going to be easier for someone to be persuaded or to reconsider their stance and consider your stance if you're just coming at them like a emotional machine gun getting too passionate?

When I was younger in college, I wanted to be an attorney more than anything in the world. I wanted to be a litigator and stand in front of judges and, you know, defend the constitution. And I was very passionate in class so much so

that I would just get so emotional, not like crying, but emotional like heated over my beliefs. And my professor who is one of the most influential people in my life as far as shaping my career, I should probably tell him that one day, but he said, don't storm the castle, Brittany.

He told me that a lot. And I think I've said this a few times on the show and what he meant by that is you can't always change minds or you can't succeed in a courtroom if you're storming the castle, if you're going in, you know, guns blazing and charging in,

you have to be able to rein that in. Passion is great, restrained passion is even better. If you can take that passion and turn it into a really logical argument, oh my goodness, that is the most powerful artillery you're ever going to be able to use,

whether that's in a courtroom or, you know, with your writing or just in whatever you do. So that's, I think, one of the most important lessons that we can learn. So it's not just for other people and being aware of what they're doing.

It's also understanding that you are going to be a better persuader, a better speaker, whatever it is, if you can also approach things without this emotional response because you feel like your beliefs are being attacked. So how do we reduce the backfire effect

when we're having these conversations with people? I like to follow the how and the why method. And this is the Socratic method is very focused on teaching and even learning through how and why. So instead of getting defensive, if it's, you know, you, because again,

this goes both ways. You can get defensive, other people can. When you see this happening in a conversation, no matter who it is, take a deep breath and ask the person, why is it, you know, why do you feel this way?

And don't ask it in like a, why do you feel this way? Don't be rude about it, but genuinely come to them and say, why, why, I'm just so curious to know why you feel this way or how did you come about this belief and show genuine curiosity? Don't just talk, listen, right?

That's one of the most important things you can do. Listen to what that person is saying and see what you can learn from them because it's gonna either change your mind, maybe your mind needs to be changed a little bit or it's going to help you strengthen your stance

to be able to persuade other people better. And it's also great to start with mutual understanding to find a place where you can both start and reason from that. Let's say you're talking about the welfare state. Let's say you're talking about poverty and how to help people who are impoverished,

help people who can't afford things. One person can say the government should be helping them. The other person might say, oh, well, the government actually helps too much where it's, you know, they're creating policies like occupational licensing or making, you know,

housing unaffordable and people are staying locked in their social economic status without being able to rise up. Okay, so these are two different arguments, limited government or no government and more government. But what do you both agree on? You both agree that poverty is a problem, right?

You can start from the understanding of we don't want people to suffer economically. Start from there and then work your way up. So finding that common ground is going to be a great way to have somebody not feel like they're being attacked but actually have them feel like they're being heard

and understood because that is so much of our problem today. We don't feel understood and then we get on the defensive. So really, really important strategies there for talking with people. The goal of an argument shouldn't be to win because guess what?

You're not gonna win and there's really no way to keep score. Most people are not going to leave an argument and say you were right. What does happen though, most people are maybe so impressed with the conversation or so touched by the conversation that they go home and they start to reconsider

and they start to think about things and over time maybe their opinion changes and it started with a very civil conversation of understanding and so that's kind of the goal. It's not like there's at the end of an argument somebody's gonna be like, you're a winner.

It's not a wrestling match. So, and I think the internet is proof of that. If you ever see people fighting on social media, there is no winner. We're all losers. We're having to be subject to do it.

So let's wrap it up there. And as always, I wanna remind you guys to remember that the book is called Be Where You Are Bias. So it's not just other people. We all have them. It is so human.

And so if we want other people to change and we have to also change ourselves it all starts with us changing ourselves and being aware of what we're doing. So it's not just let's learn how to talk to other people who aren't rational because we are so rational.

It's we do this too. So we will leave it there as always. Don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast and until next time I will talk to you later.