681. Why Were the Nuremberg Trials So Important? The Birth of “Crimes Against Humanity"

[Brittany]
Hi Rachel.

[Rachel]
Hey Brittany.

[Brittany]
So today I want to talk about the Nuremberg Trials and what those mean and why they were important.

Yeah it is as I say it's not a not a light-hearted topic. So just bottom line info and then we'll jump into the important part of it or at least I think the important part that I want to talk about. So Nuremberg Trials happened after World War II.

This was after you know the world had figured out all this horrible stuff Nazi Germany was doing, all the you know the holocaust, all this horrible death and just I mean casualties of war aren't just death right. The people who no longer had their family, who were orphaned, who were widowed, who were saw horrific things happen in concentration camps. This was a horrible moment for the world because they they didn't they had to witness the worst of humanity or maybe hear about it.

They didn't witness it necessarily not everybody but they had to hear about it and so the Nuremberg Trials were the aftermath of that where essentially like a world tribunal put the Nazis on trial and we're trying to see you know war crimes and all this where we're putting them on trial and there were some interesting things that came out. It's called Nuremberg that's where it happened I believe right yeah. There's so many I was reading about a bunch of different trials.

Yeah it was Germany Nuremberg Germany. So there were a lot of takeaways from the Nuremberg Trial but I want to focus on one particular area and that is the Nuremberg Trials concluded that in war crimes and in these instances that it's not just a nation. It's not just a government that can be held accountable for the horrible things they've done but the individual and this had a lot of interesting implications right because Nazi Germany was a horrible obviously was horrible but it's horrible because not only did you have you know the Jews and people who were being interned fearing for their lives and the Nazis but you also had other Germans who did feel pressure to comply. You know there's a lot of people who complied because they were scared.

They turned neighbors in because they were scared.

[Rachel]
There was a lot of threats. If you helped people try to escape like if you had hid Jews in your attic or something you would get sent to the concentration camps too so.

[Brittany]
So it's a yeah it's a nuanced topic. It's hard you know and then there was also like if you were a certain age and they would send you to Hitler youth camps that were just you know feeders for becoming a Nazi. So people did try to use the excuse I was just following orders.

You heard that a lot people trying to say like I can't be blamed for this. I was just following orders. And Nuremberg concluded that that's not an excuse.

You can't say you're just following orders. If you did something you're responsible for it. And that's what I want to talk about today and I actually just kind of want to have a conversation with you Rachel on how we feel about that because I think it's a tricky one because on the one hand as an individualist individualism isn't just believing that the individual has well they do have the right over to dictate their own their own lives but that isn't always good.

What I mean by that is that can be good and it can be bad because just as that means you should be rewarded for your individual merit that also means there are consequences for your individual actions that are not good right. So right it's this double-edged sword. So I don't know Rachel any opening thoughts on this as we as we dive into this topic.

What do you think about that.

[Rachel]
Oh yeah. I mean excuse me. I mean it's hugely important because any leader is only as strong as the people following orders like the people underneath them that are enabling their evil designs you know for example or if they have good things that they want to do you know they can't do it on their own.

I mean can you imagine if every Nazi that was in the chain of command of Hitler had a conscious and and just said no if everyone had said no Hitler would just be screaming into the dark at nobody you know and and these things.

[Brittany]
Hitler himself didn't kill anybody. It was the people following orders.



[Rachel]
It was the people following orders that's why we have to hold them accountable. So and I just I just heard an interview earlier today with Kristi Noem talking about border patrol and the border patrol agents who during the Biden years they they knew that you know these children coming across the the border they had these phone numbers written on them and they knew that they're being trafficked but their chain of command told them well call the number and send the child along and like these border patrol agents they're they're just like crushed with guilt because they they knew that bad things were happening to these children so but but yeah I mean what what do you do when you're being told to do something evil well you have to say no because I mean it's not just the courts that hold you accountable it's your own conscience like and if you believe in God you know your maker is going to hold you accountable one day you know and karma or whatever you know we all have to do the right thing even when we're told to do the wrong thing.

[Brittany]
But it's tricky you know it's and I agree with you 100% but then I also put myself in the shoes of someone who maybe lived in Nazi Germany hated what was going on but had little kids and a wife and a family and they were told they had to do this and they feared for what would happen to their family if they didn't and so they're I'm very empathetic now this doesn't go for everyone there were people that did terrible things and justified it by trying to dehumanize people but there were people that I'm sure didn't didn't love what they were doing and that they did it because they were scared and out of fear and it's it's just such a hard situation and an unfortunate situation because even then they still chose to do it and you know there's force is bad obviously we believe you know a government can't or shouldn't force you to do something but the cool thing about having our own free will is that even if somebody is threatening you will be an extreme example at the point of a gun you still have the opportunity to answer to your conscience right and and not do you know face the consequences but not do what's asked of you but that's easier said than done I think.

[Rachel]
It is yeah it is easier said than done and life is complicated you know life life will throw just difficult difficult situations at you but I mean you just you have to think you know if everyone complies and obeys you know some really bad things can happen so I I don't know I like you I have I have empathy for people who had like a at stake you know other other yeah uh I I I wouldn't want to be put in that position but yeah I I hope if I ever was that I would do the right thing and that's yeah I think we all have

[Brittany]
that moment and I think it's also good to realize that you you're you know you might you don't know what you would have done and and that there are so many complicated things but at the end of the day I think Nuremberg was right to set this out I think there's two kind of points to it one I think if the government is ordering them to me I automatically think yes government is bad they're the ones doing it but how many stories of heroic people of the people who changed the world the people that set examples were the people who were ordered to do something or who were living in situations where everybody was doing horrible things and they stood up and said no those are people's list like Schindler's List but yeah who Oscar Schindler who saved people um or uh you know even little even little things like Rosa Parks saying no you know I'm not gonna sit down in the back of the little things like that but there are people who are willing to say no even though it meant taking a law I mean look at the founders they stood up and said no we're not gonna take this from the king anymore and that was treasonous that was they signed their life away

[Rachel]
if things had gone the other way they would be hanging from a tree and we would be speaking English right now just kidding I was gonna do a really bad British accent but I said

[Brittany]
but yeah it's it's a it's a really important topic because I think it also reminds us how much responsibility individualism takes collectivism is easy it's easy to throw off all personal responsibility on a group that's that's a breeze right I you know I only did this because they were doing it I only bullied this kid because the other kids were doing it you know that's that's easy but individualism and and making those individual choices and having to live with the consequences of those individual choices that's hard and that's inescapable in every facet of life but I mean if it's something horrible going on around you and again no none of us really know what we would do in that situation we hope we do we hope we know that we would say no but it's like you said Rachel it's a heavy topic it's a heavy thing to have to think about

[Rachel]
And there's a Latin quote that comes to mind "tu ne cede malis" don't do not give in to evil

[Brittany]
do not give into evil and then there's the other part and I don't remember so it's do not give into evil but proceed more boldly against it uh is the full quote yeah or full I mean just just just

[Rachel]
imagine what happens if if everybody refuses to give in to evil you know that it could change the world for the better but if everybody just goes along to get along yeah you know the um really evil things can happen and and I think we would be remiss if we didn't spend just a little bit of time to mention operation paperclip and that life is not fair life is not fair because some of the worst nazis the very very top and the um the nazi scientists who were doing the worst kind of medical experiments and this is in um the the teen guidebook uh operation paperclip is a true conspiracy theory they got uh shuffled off to argentina and south america like they they avoided uh punishment in the end um so the people that were giving the orders they got away with it and then the people who were following orders they uh got put on trial and uh yeah they're they're the ones that got so let this be a lesson to you um if you just follow orders you might be the one left holding the bag in the end so because that's what happened to and even hitler there's there's actually compelling evidence that hitler uh ran off to um argentina and lived out his years

[Brittany]
I did a lot of digging into this one I don't believe that one oh you don't think so no operation paperclip is we know that happened that's again that's why it's called a conspiracy

[Rachel]
yeah but uh I don't know I I could be convinced that that ava brown died in 2000 like yeah that she died uh just a few years ago at like age a thousand and yeah I was gonna say

[Brittany]
old lady well conspiracies aside we will wrap it up there uh moral of the story is I'm just following orders is never a good reason for doing anything evil doing anything bad you should answer to your conscience even if that means risking your own life even if that means that you meet horrible ends you will feel better about yourself you know if you do the right thing and the right thing is not always easy but um yeah so we'll leave it there please don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast share with your friends and until next time we will talk to you later bye